Only on the condition that you never ever touch my Hawk.

I fly Ishtars, I think they're OP and this silly stat change isn't going to alter that. I fly the ishtar because it's the best option, not because it's the most enjoyable so if you make it less silly OP then I can choose other ships to use. Now you have to be a fool not to fly one, I want them to be viable option but not the only option. Here's how I look at it;


- sentries in and of themselves are fine

- drone assignment is a silly thing that has no real game mechanic use and might as well be removed. Whether or not fighters should keep it is even debatable, we have it because at some point CCP thought it was a cool idea but I feel we could/should have a thorough discussion on that. Personally I think that from a gameplay/balance pov we can remove it, yes the whining will be glorious but other than "because we have it atm" there's no valid reason for it.

- while sentries are fine, 5 of them on a cruiser hull is not fine. Their damage and projection is beyond silly compared to other medium weapon systems. a Vaga does not do BS lvls of dps, neither does a Zealot, Deimos, Cerb or any other HAC and they certainly don't have their projection (they may have the range but lack the dps). The odd one out is of course the Ishtar. Capable of doing 750@50m and 620@120km (depending on fit of course but for some uses those are factual numbers), that's just moronic levels of projection. Yes, drones have their own problems yaddayadda but no problem is bad enough to make those numbers defendable.

If you compare it to other HAC damage projection then lowering the number of sentries to 4 isn't even enough, 3 seems to be much more on par but that would get a bit awkward. Personally I feel that the drone range bonus should be removed and only leave a tracking one and then drop the number of sentries to 4. That would lower the overall silly dps numbers and the projection issue making it more in line with other HACS. I would even go as far as limiting the number of heavies because in their own right they create the same problem; cruisers should not be able to do the same as a BS.



TLDR; Drop bandwidth to 100m3 (same on VNI), remove drone range bonus on the Ishtar (and also Domi for that matter) but keep the tracking one. Remove drone assigning.

BS level DPS = DPS level exceeding projection and damage of medium weapon systems with a significant margin.

Its "niche" is being silly OP. It's not difficult to define it, you look up comparable BS with proper fits and you... compare them.

Sure, go tell us how much more a domi does at 50km or 100km while using a realistic fit.

With what kind of a fit? I've never seen Eos flown as anything else than an actual command ship as the bonuses are not really fleet-worthy. I'm seeing exact same DPS output (because of bonuses) as Ishtar, minus tracking and optimals which is a major reason why Ishtar is used, 37,5% helps with applied DPS immensely, here's a pretty graph with Bouncers against a shield-tanked tengu:

http://i.imgur.com/SJx3M3t.jpg

Same graph with Gardes against a Guardian:

http://i.imgur.com/5f8aXUs.jpg

Bouncers against a Guardian:

http://i.imgur.com/S4hUu7p.jpg

Eos is built around heavy drones which would take considerable time to reach to 60k to hit anything and in case of anything going over 2,1k (like an ishtar) the heavies would not even be able to catch them.

So you're going shield instead of armour to pile on the mag stabs/TE, and by doing so you forfeit the option to use omniD. That sounds like a really good plan tbh, messing up your main damage's range/tracking favour of a ****** unbonused weapon. Non tanked allout DDA/magstab/TE with 2-3 omniD is not a realistic fit. Keep trying though.

You still haven't shown us numbers on how a domi with 425 and a realistic fit does significantly more damage compared to an Ishtar at 50 and 100km ranges.

We're talking about sentries, which *kinda* indicates ranged engagements where your lol blasters won't work. And if your sole reasoning is "Domi can fit one more DDA and this makes it clearly superior, countering the 'Ishtar is too good, it compares too well to its BS counterpart'" then I have news for you; you're a hypocrite, you're trying too hard and no one is falling for it.

Okay, something you couldn't use in a fleet:

[Eos, Eos fit]

Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Tracking Speed Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Tracking Speed Script
Tracking Computer II
Tracking Computer II

250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

[Empty Rig slot]
[Empty Rig slot]

Bouncer II x5

http://i.imgur.com/COzSScN.jpg

Raw DPS is higher, but applied DPS is appaling. Only Ishtar and Dominix have this projection from subcaps and is the reason why they are used. Yoiu can go and fiddle with links as much as you want to, unless you can increase Eos tracking by 40%, you will never even get close to applied DPS of an Ishtar.

Edit: added 2x DLA to both:

http://i.imgur.com/I9TT5Bn.jpg

No.

1) at ranges where sentries work blaster don't work, and vice versa. As such making a combo if those two and then go "look at that dps" is unrealistic.

2) while the Domi can't really get away with a shield fit in most situations the Ishtar can and generally does, LSE scales much better on cruisers and its innate t2 resists help a ton. As such the ishtar can easily fit 3 DDA and if you don't need a nanofiber even a 4th. Making it no different (and actually better in many cases) than the Domi.

that eos/tristan gun tracking bonus sure is utter trash. ccp please fix.

Nothing to twist if the subject we're discussing is sentries.

You're thinking of paper DPS, a HAM tengu can get there, but the DPS is useless unless you can actually project it. Megas, Apocs, TFI can all project good DPS at range but ishtar can do it while being close to untouchable with better resists (but less EHP) at speeds up to 2.7k/s. On a domi this is not an issue as bombs wreck havoc to them due to size and lower resist profile.

Thank you for disqualifying yourself. EFT warrior shitfit nonsense where you use 6 damage mods to support your frantic attempt to "hide" how a ship is overpowered is hilarious, and quite entertaining.

Yet you will not be able to hit an enemy fleet with that. I suggest you take part in a fleet fight against Ishtars with domis and wonder why you cannot hit them.

I placed the core of this idea earlier, and have been reading all the comments in the thread.
There is a real polarisation of ideas here, some do not see the problem as real or significant ( possibly because they enjoy things as they are?)
Some see the ishtar as the spawn of the devil and believe it must die at all costs.
Some see sentry drones as the problem as they believe they are a battleship weapon, though this argument also applies to the battlecruisers in the same breath.

IF and I Repeat IF there is a problem with the ishtar as it stands I suggest that the following would change the meta of the ship in its entirety while still giving the ship a role that people would wish to employ.

Allow the ship to fly and specialise in MEDIUM drones, retain bonus to speed of drones, reduce drone bay to 250 and boost them to 80%-85% the same damage levels as are currently applied by their respective racial heavies, however retain 5 mediums and do not further increase hit points beyond current bonuses.


Remove the hit point bonus from sentries on this ship.

Keep the other bonuses unchanged.

This allows the ship to have SOME of the advantages of the gila, some reduced, and some improved over the Gila.
It can still field sentry drones effectively but only 2 flights of sentries that are easier to destroy, it will have fast powerful mediums, which again are destructible as they do not gain the HERO benefits to hit points.

The new meta will give choices that need to be balanced against risk.
The ship will still have a desirable role, if somewhat different.

This is not a suggestion to NERF the Ishtar, it is to change the focus of the ship, retaining it as a powerful HAC but changing the focus from sentries with their associated instant damage application.....


Alternatively create a role for a HAC to be a specialised sentry drone killer capable of destroying them at warden ranges.
Please note that heavy drones would NOT be suitable to replace the mediums suggested.

Unlike the Gila it has a different overall Flavour, it will still be a boat capable of deploying sentries effectively, and deploying Powerful medium drones, however, in exchange for better medium damage and speed, and the ability to deploy sentries, they will have more vulnerable drones. The ship is overall more fragile as well compared to a fully skilled Gila, and will tend to operate at different ranges under most circumstances.

A fair and balanced exchange.

Yes the ishtar will still be able to field sentries, unlike the gila, and the ishtar will not gain near invulnerable hero drones.

Fragility vs DPS quite different.


And in answer to above post, heavy drones will still apply more damage than mediums, so still a valid option to train for. There is still bandwidth to use, and bay for both a flight of heavies and sentries if you choose. no change to bandwidth is suggested.

Now put MF on that Zealot and tell me what it's DPS & range are.
Also try putting fall off ranges on all those range figures. Since you didn't bother to list them at all then talk about how it needs more range.
And ship speeds.

Ignoring Ishtar, the Muninn is actually putting out the most DPS of the three HAC's you listed, so obviously it's range won't be as much.
What your figures actually say is the Ishtar is totally OP.

i never mentioned HAM (I assumed saying same range would imply regular heavies, seeing as HAMSs will never hit as far out as sentries unless you rig it for that as well it might hit as far as a garde) and shield power relay? Maybe on a ratting fit, but I don't think I've ever seen a doctrine with that on there. And take away that 5th DDA it's damage bonus is almost negligible after that much stacking, and replace it with either a nano or damage control. How are you going to accuse me of cherry picking when you fill in the blanks with your own words. Like I said, nothing wrong with sentries as standalone weapon system. However, the fact that there are no other HACs that can compare to it in the same role is bad. The speed nerf only addresses the ships ability to avoid damage, but do not affect it's own damage application, which is where the problem truly lies.

Something something, destructible weapon system.

Also I spent the last six month training for it, therefore I have earned my pocket battleship and it is totally balanced.

yes its imbalanced. Amazingly so. sentry drones don't worry about transversal as much. You dump em and kite freely around the battlefield. Maybe they'd be more balanced if you were forced to maintain a closer proximity to the sentries...like within 30K rather than simply *on grid*.

But yes the Ishtar is the most free flying ship. This slight range nerf and such will have a measurable impact. But at the end of the day it begins to eat away at its drone specialization. I'd argue more that the other HAC's aren't specialized enough in their roles...that their bonuses aren't significant enough. Just look at how weak the eagle is. It is slow...does like half the dps of the ishtar and has no drones.

Funny, I get 42k+ EHP, 1800+ m/s and 700+ DPS (@47+23).

You know, the kind of nonsense just about every other ship can only dream of.

Nope, but you ought to be able to work it out.

It's a fleet fit.

It's a FLEET ship. Are you new at this?

Just what is it you think you're pointing at 40-80kms anyway?

"Good"? Try preposterously overpowered with stats, fittings and application other ships in the class could only DREAM of.

When the counter to X, is MORE X on the other side, you have a problem. And that's where ishtars are.

Can they die? Sure.
Do they bring far more to the table than any other HAC and do it in the same damned fit no matter the comparision HAC? Incontrovertibly.

The closest match is a cerberus, which cannot get near what an ishtar can do, unless it could magically swap from RLML, to HAMS to HML without a depot or docking. Plus fitting neuts to handle tackle. And with extra lows so nanos are viable whilst still keeping 3 damage mods.

THAT's the kind of nonsense going on here.

And yet ishtar fleets will still dunk all of those ships in fleet.

Do you really think everyone uses them because they're not the best?

There's a simple reason everyone uses them so prolifically. It's 2014 drake blobs on steroids.

Sure, when you over simplify things like that they look great. But why aren't Cerberus fleets being used to counter ishtars? Soon as you turn off the MWD heavies barely scratch and if you go for hams the Ishtar will just run circles around your shorter range. How about zealots? They've got very nice range with the hull bonus and beams, close to if not better than sentries. However you won't get anywhere near as much damage in matter how you fit it. So munnins should be the counter right? Nope. Artillery is great for alpha fleets but they are too fragile and their range is shorter unless you sacrifice alpha damage, which means you need more munnins. Don't even look at the eagle or Deimos. Neither can effectively get the same dps at the same range or tank enough (while keeping proper speed) to get in close enough to use higher dps ammo/guns (which is still a huge step behind sentries) to do anything useful.

So why does the Ishtar do almost twice as much damage at similar ranges? Wardens get about 100km optimal with 45km falloff and eagle gets 135km optimal with 15km falloff. In fact at pretty much every range the Ishtar gets better damage and tracking at pretty much every range pattern. Why is a ship specialized and bonuses for long range dps so easily outclasses in every category? This is what's unbalanced. This is why the other HACs see less use. Why use anything else? The Ishtar can most likely do it better. And you may say "destructible weapon system" but when you actually take a look at how easy it is to negate this, even Rise understood it wasn't as powerful an argument. Ever tried killing 700+ sentries with a 10-30km spread that will just be replaced 2 more times? And I really doubt having 5m/s really has any major arguing points when claiming that being that much faster compensates for the much larger discrepancies between the two.

The alliances use Ishtar doctrines because the ship is overpowered, and they have some of the best theorycrafters in the game designing their fleet compositions. Those people learn to recognise an OP ship.

I love flying the Ishtar in everything from solo PVP to ratting in hostile space. That does not stop me realising the ship is hugely overpowered at the moment. (As is its brother the Gila, but that doesn't have the fleet applications the Ishtar has, so the brokenness there is harder to notice).

I still think the best way to declaw the Ishtar for now is to remove all bonuses to damage application from sentry drones. Let it have the best heavy drone damage application of any ship.

I still stand by my previous post from a while ago on how to balance the Ishtar - because drones are the problem not the Ishtar itself. However, someone countered with the fact that Carriers are immune to EWAR, which is just freaking silly. Plus my solution, while it would balance out all drones in a more permanent way rather than this "quick band-aid and hope the problem goes away" approach, requires a lot of work. So, now I'll propose a quicker, easier solution to all this that can be done entirely within the time of the Hyperion release.

Someone else put forth a proposal that would work quite well. Cut the tracking of sentry drones by half, or even down to 1/3 of their current form. I'd even be okay with upping the range of the sentries by a bit to compensate.

But this, in itself, isn't enough. Because the devs hiding behind "oh but it's a destructible weapon system!" doesn't mean much because it's neigh impossible to remove sentry drones from the field in any meaningful fashion. You know how riot police use water cannons? Saying sentry drones are destructible therefore "deal with them", is like saying to someone "take an umbrella to your next protest, that'll keep those water cannons at bay".

So, we have to make the concept of destroyable sentries meaningful. And I think this will have a three-part solution. 1: it would help to balance out Ishtars. 2: It would alleviate the problem with Carriers carrying sentries until CCP wises up and removes that option. 3: We're going to make the Eagle useful by giving it a Niche.

For the record, Eagle still needs at least a 15m^3 drone bay, but that aside...

Chop the hull, armor, and shield points of sentries down where a medium rail turret can one-shot it.

Eagle currently has 5 turret slots and the range to use them against sentries. Most boats can only drop 5 at a time. I sense a balance in the force...

Sentries, with a lot less tracking, a bit more range, and almost no HP, MUST be used as long-range sniping platforms. Eagles become a part of fleets to reach out and smack sentry guns at range because no other medium platform will have the optimal range, mobility, and tank to close in on them quick enough to get 'em before popping. And this new nerf would provide the necessary balance to those carrier fleets. You can keep dropping those sentries man, but there's 200 of your carriers and 300 Eagles on this side, and we can wipe out all of your DPS before you can do anything meaningful with those sentries. Or, you know, you can deploy fighters.

Until then, calling out "destructible weapons is totally a downside!" is rather meaningless (and an embarrassment to the one saying it) since each sentry gun has a lot of hit points and the time you waste attacking one, all of them are hitting you. The only real way to take them out, that I've heard mentioned so far, is Stealth Bomber runs, which only work in null (so low-sec Ishtars are unaffected), and are way too difficult to organize and pull off, compared to the incredible ease of organizing a roving gang of sentry Ishtars.

The upside is that sentry drones are still quite usable, even in that form. PvE is perfectly fine, even buffed a bit if you go ahead and up the optimal like I suggested. And if you're circling your sentries, you can scoop them up when they come under attack, like you should be doing anyway. PvP with sentries becomes trickier obviously, but still doable once you take out the enemy support. You know, just like how battles are supposed to go.

Yes, I know I'm about to be flamed to hell and back for saying all this, but with the sentries having all of the insane advantages that they do, they have to have at least one major downside and they don't currently have that. So this would make a good fix until drones are balanced as weapon systems properly. When drones take up CPU and PG, take capacitor to use, and are effected by EWAR on the host ship, we can have another discussion about giving them their hitpoints back.

At the range where the Eagle may be able to outdamage the Ishtar, it does such pathetic damage that it is completely useless anyway.
By the way the Ishtar does almost twice as much dps than the eagle at 150km.

The only used "long range" medium railgun ship is the Tengu and that's because it is faster and has twice as much EHP than the Eagle.

Remember things can still be overpowered whilst not immortal.

And the point about the other HACs is whilst they edge (and it is edge) the ishtar in one or two areas each, the ishtars package is still simply better. i.e. the minor disadvantage in a select area is still more than outweighed by what the ishtar overall brings to the field.

You are welcome to kid yourself further that it's still not an overpowered monster. I'll still fly them in fleets because there's little point in using anything else when it's not a kitchen sink.

So you're trying to tell me, that dps doesnt matter on the one weapon system that specializes in long range dps? And I already showed you that even taking into account falloff, the wardens will apply better damage at the same ranges as rails. The only point they come even close is at 150km where the wardens drop to near to rail levels but then rail damage drops dramatically as falloff kicks in, all the while wardens have better tracking. So no, rails do not apply damage better than sentries in the same situations. While yes it does tank a bit more than the common fleet ishtar fit, it does not help much against double the dps.

Got a fit to go with this claim for the Eagle?

That is why freighters are the main combat ship in eve.....

Other HACs cannot counter them. That is entirely the point.

Maybe in some weird, contrived world inside your head, but on the field, with a solid FC - not a cats chance in hell.

So the eagle with less DPS (which shoots at the highest possible resists on the ishtar), a 1300m/s speed disadvantage and all of 15km longer range?

Brilliant. My ishtars are running, RUNNING in terror. Oh wait, they're not, they're erasing crap like that from the skies with their curators.

And that is completely irrelevant if the ishtar tank is already big enough so the logis keep it alive. Eagle tank will be overkill most of the time when you have logis. Overkill is something that does not help.

It is like killing a destroyer with a tempest with arties instead of a munin. Irrelevant.. its overkill. The munin is still better becuse it can track more and fire faster. On the same way the ishtar is better because it can deal more damage while also staying alive.

Well if you're hell bent on going down this route, do you have any idea how little damage an eagle will do to an ishtar?

Hint: With hybrids in the eagle and curators in the ishtar, suddenly the EHPs are about the same.

Hardly double then, is it?

It is, however, less than half the DPS. And slower.

So yeah, tell me more about this "counter"

No. And for rails yes. Especially considering that even the highest damage rails only have the same damage as the longest range drones on an Ishtar.

Not sure if your trolling or just can't see the whole picture.

If that had been a problem we would not be seeing so many ishtar fleets would we?

Okay, I took the stock shield Ishtar fleet fit and made one with your eagles, you'll be shooting the appropriate target (MWD'ing scimitar).

Gardes with 1x tracking script vs. CN Antimatter:

http://i.imgur.com/d9CWY6P.jpg

Bouncers with 1x tracking vs. CN iridium

http://i.imgur.com/i4gEOK3.jpg

Bouncers with 1x optimal vs. Spike

http://i.imgur.com/TyV17xG.jpg

Speed difference:
2178 vs 644

EHP:
54k vs 127k

BTW, 140km away with iridium you need 7 eagles jut to zero sum one scimi on the shield ishtars or 8 eagles to zeo sum one ishtar, so 20 scimies will mean you need over 140 eagles to kill one of the enemy ships if logi is awake.

I fail to see how eagles even stand a chance against something which they cannot catch at all. Remember, Eagles need to catch the Ishtars, but Ishtars only need to run away from the Eagles in a fashion where the Eagles are forced at the drone ranges. If you are going to counter this with "no one can manuever them that well" then I suggest you to schedule a fight with Tri. Ishtars.

Also consider that the Eagles will not be able to run away from bombs unless FC issues fleet warp within 1 second of first bomb showing up or if the fleet is aligned at all times. Ishtars can just outrun the bombs due to the speed advantage.

And that eagle fit will be spanked up and down by competent ishtars.

LOL in what magical world you live? Ishtar will not get spanked by other hacs.

Mmmh, not with your fit.

Is that with your after burner fit? I really doubt it.

And before you side track I'm referring to speed.

Guess what happens to your tank then?

I'm sure that makes up for the marginal speed difference and extremely lackluster dps. Just sit there and take a little longer to be killed.

Also, good luck catching an Ishtar when your capacitor is over 20% and don't forget you have to power all those extra shield hardener and rail guns eat cap too. I'm sure an extra 5 m/s and 40% extra buffer is going to help.

Again, it seems like you are terrible t seeing the ole picture.

Ultimately, the problem with the Ishtar is this: it can do battleship-class DPS at battleship-class ranges, and still maintain a great tank and great mobility. Any of the other HACs have to choose one of those at a time, maybe two, but not all four. I'd be fine with the Ishtar being able to keep it's range, DPS, it's tank, or it's mobility, but being able to sport all of them at once is absolutely insane.

As a (former) sniper Eagle pilot, I was utterly amazed when I started back up a few months back only to find that an Ishtar is a better fleet sniper than my rail Eagle.

I think this change is a step in the right direction. I can appreciate CCP's desire for incremental change, just as long as they realize that they will need to continue looking at the Ishtar until it's fixed.


Your definition of fun, while appreciated, is somewhat troubling sir.

Then what's the point of all that extra tank? Isn't that extra dps more helpful in killing mobile targets? And I never said solo. Nobody is arguing solo. This entire conversation has been about sentries on a cruiser in fleets.

Before you start down that path, how about you denied what it's worse at and why it should be better.

So, I like the "half tracking of sentries idea", or at least lower their tracking to be similar to their long range counterparts. Against reducing damage as a battleship weapon, since that would only effectively hurt the domi.

In conjunction, I also like the idea of reducing ishtar bandwidth to 100 and lowering heavy bandwidth to 20. ( I'd also like to see the proteus get 125 bandwidth, but could be happy with 100 alone if the heavy change to 20 went through. )

Question though:

If you remove the sentry bonuses on the ishtar outright, what do you replace them with? Mediums and lights on an ishtar are already powerful enough to break most any frig. If you bonus them, you'll set up ishtars to be tackle annihilators on small gangs.

Heavies on an ishtar do enough damage and have enough tracking to seriously dunk on cruisers, battlecruisers, and BSes. So bonusing them further would put them damned near where ishtars are now. Except unlike now where you have a drone blob that is stationary and wrecks around the field, you'll end up with a drone cloud that follows you anywhere and wrecks you're ****. It makes smartbombing viable, but most traditional fits don't rely on smartbombs.

Ishtar is about the only ship bonused for two different weapon systems in this way. What do you give them to make up for loss of sentry bonuses?

Then what's the point of all that extra tank? Isn't that extra dps more helpful in killing mobile targets? And I never said solo. Nobody is arguing solo. This entire conversation has been about sentries on a cruiser in fleets.

Replace:
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed

with both of these:
7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone microwarpdrive speed
5% bonus to Heavy Drone damage

First, c'mon, make sure your quote tags are setup right, thats a pain to read.

Second, eagle is not an ideal counter to ishtar due to resist profile. Can you kill an ishtar fleet with an eagle fleet, sure. Depends on logistics and fleet numbers more than the ships themselves. To be honest, the muninn or zealot is probably a better counter due to damage selection in ishtar's resist holes.

If muninn had better optimal, i could see them hurting shield ishtar fleets (EM ammo) or armor fleets (fusion) from the ranges that ishtars operate at. Sadly, that is not the case though, and muninn leaves a lot to be desired.

I see what you're getting at with trying to buff other HACs and leaving ishtar as it is.., but at the same time, having HACs w/ BS like dps all over the place... kind of makes BS even less viable. Not to mention, most hac's can't even tank the ishtar's dps effectively in a solo aspect. So if we were to buff all HACs to have comparable DPS or projection, then we would also need to rethink slot layout and tank to compensate. Which is basically just rebalancing all HAC's... again. Pretty sure CCP has better things to do than rebalance all the HAC's to fix ishtar.

Just my .02, i haven't been reading your conversation for the past 10+ pages.. so if i missed something, sorry.

Actually that's a good point. Why the hell is the Ishtar specialized in BS-class weapons?

Shouldn't the bonuses be more like:

Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
7.5% bonus to Medium Drone max velocity and tracking speed
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage

Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level):
5000m bonus to Drone operation range
7.5% bonus to Medium Drone optimal range and microwarpdrive speed

When did anyone mention removing all drones from the ishtar or even imply anything close to it?

The post you quoted only mentioned reducing the bandwidth to maybe 4 heavies-worth or to remove sentry bonuses so that the the ishtar was forced to uses non-sentry drones.

Also to the rest of you I'd like to propose something; it's that the issue we have here is that we lack small and medium sentries.

Drones as a weapon system are lacking in this regard. Beams or pulse, arty and autos, drones and.....more drones until you get to battleships or BCs.

We need medium sentries that have DPS and ranges that are comparable to the beam/arty/rail counterparts.

Then we can have drone boats that all have drone size specific bonuses, similar to how the guristas got their bonuses, and comparable DPS and tracking and range to boot.

You really are just shiptoasting and actually not playing the game. Can you please elaborate, explain or show how you can apply scrams from a ship going max 700m/s to a ship going 2100m/s in a fleet situation?

Ceptors are a good idea, except they will be at sentry optimals and die to a few Ishtars in a single volley. Probing down one of them and warping in an Eagle takes 8 seconds minimum, Ishtars are over 16k away when you land and over 20k away when you achieve a lock.

What you expected from a character that does not have a single kill registered in its name on all history?


Stop Janice. You are not contributing. You are clearly biased and pushing towards your own agenda and perception with complete disregard for the factual informationt that "ishtars" are grossly overpowered and abused by everyone that can in eve right now. I put ishtars between quotes because that is an issue of sentries not Ishtars mostly.

Yeah it's funny how that char's posts, all of them apart from 1, is all in this thread. Trying so very hard putting in tons of effort to go "no, nothing to see here, Ishtar's fine. move along please". It's hilarious.

A HAC shouldn't be "better" or "worse" than an ABC, they are different types of ships that fill different roles. You have to compare the ships in specific roles, not just the ships. Is a Malediction "worse" than an Oracle? That question is invalid without an intended role.

To your point, yes, I feel a HAC should be less effective than an ABC when it comes to being a mobile sniper using battleship-class weaponry. Absolutely, 100%. Why? It's simple. HACs were never intended to fill that role. The only reason CCP gave the sentry drone bonuses to the Ishtar was to avoid making it "just another drone boat". I commend that effort, but it's time for them to put it aside and fix the Ishtar.

To help put this into context, name me one other HAC where this is even a relevant discussion. No other HACs come close to matching ABCs in performance in their role, only the Ishtar.

HACs should be either good anti-support snipers, or good brawling cruisers, or good kiters, or any of several other roles. But none of them should get to be all of them at once, and I don't feel that overlapping them with ABCs is wise or intended by CCP.

It isn't "all of them at once" . A shield Ishtar isn't brawling anything. Shield ishtars cannot stand to be pinned down by anything with decent firepower. If you have decent tackle, or just bubbles, a shield ishtar fleet couldn't even engage another hac fleet. Their entire strategy would be "burn away and warp out/in for repositioning. " . A single scram means no more kiting for a shield fit, and that means death. They are excellent kiting ships, but snipers often need to be.

Armor ishtars, however, are wonderful brawling ships. Amazing tank, ewar, prop and tackle. Can they get their drone control range high enough to snipe? Yeah. But it doesn't matter much because those 3 DDA fit 600+ damage wardens don't exist on an armor fit. Their damage is pitiful compared to shield fits, and plenty of armor fits prefer ewar to omnis and so their most all hitting falloff.

I get that the ishtar is versatile and strong, but it can't literally do everything at once, fits don't allow for it.

That garde damage is maxxed out. I know for a fact that the numbers on hybrids are low, I have little experience with the others as I have only recently trained the other two turret systems.

It is my bad on the omni enhancers, I have not put a drone ship in space for nearly a year. That just leaves out implants and boosters, which are available to all other primary weapon systems.

I keep seeing this point about the sentries being stationary which helps their tracking being brought up as if it was a clear advantage. It also makes them simple to destroy, especially if the ship putting them out is trying to kite you. Stop fighting how the enemy wants. That simple.

I guess I don't see the problem because I have never cared about killboards. I don't have any PvP kills because my goals were defense of assets, not killmails... So I don't fit tackle and I don't care if the enemy gets away so long as he goes away. Seems perfectly acceptable to me to go for the drones and deny him his weapons. It's what used to happen all the time when you tried to use drones in PvP. They are not a joke anymore, but they still have low average damage with exceptional application and high resistance to ewar. That's just what they are, and if no one can be bothered to kill them that's a failure to adapt, not a failure to balance.

Translation.

Your agenda is to oppose change by claiming that the people who want the Ishtar nerfed are the ones who really oppose change in the first place.

Which is honestly mind boggling.

So aside form the one person posting 6 times in a row there's consensus? The ishtar (and/or sentry drones) needs to be brought in line with other cruisers. No other cruiser uses Battleship grade weapons (with regards to damage projection in particular) while retaining the speed and sig of a cruiser.

so you think we should bring back the 100mn tengu fleets? Un-nerf the missiles because obviously if they can't kill it, it's not that the ship is too powerful, it's just failure to adapt.

I know you're defending your golden goose, that is fairly clear.

But I have yet to see anyone actually mount a genuine defense of a cruiser being able to fit a battleship sized weapon system that can track frigates.

I have very little issues with the Ishtar itself. But non battleships should not be able to fit sentry drones. Either that, or sentry drones need to be nerfed severely.

So why does that path of thought only apply to ishtars? Are they special in some way? If you think like that then you must be against any need to anything good, or does it just suit you for this argument?

Spam posting half a dozen times in a row does not make your point valid. Did you even read what I posted above all the numbers? Just because you *can* currently deploy a (single) sentry drone from a frigate does not mean you *should* be able to, nor does it change the fact that sentry drones are *obviously* comparable to large turrets. If you really think otherwise, explain to me the 400m sig res of sentry drones, which exactly matches large turrets.

Sticking your fingers in your ears and repeating what you *want* to be true does not mean it *is* true. You're still wrong, no matter how obnoxiously repetitive you can be.

im sure comparing the same weapon system to itself is a great way to balance it. The Ishtar is the focal point of this discussion A: because this is a HAC thread and B: because it is the most powerful ship in the line of sentry using ships you listed. A lot of these argument could and probably would be applied to them if the Ishtar was no longer the front-runner of them.

An attempt to handwave away the argument without even attempting a rebuttal.

Thanks for telling me that you basically don't have one.

It isn't just the DPS. The Sentry drones require no capacitor...no cpu or grid and the deploying ship needs only to remain within control range...which can be extended easily to 200km. Then it can run around the field not worrying about transversal and keep a superior force (in numbers and or mass) pinned down inside a bubble of fire from all sides.

It's real power comes from not needing to stay with its weapons system. If it had to stay within 30km of its sentries it would be easier to counter. As it is drones are cheap enough that you can *so what* and warp off...warp back drop a new set. Worst case scenario and you run out of drones in your bay...you can carry a mobile depot and 3 more sets in your cargo.

If you run out of 6 sets of sentry drones in an ishtar fleet and you're alive and still in system...then you are in an odd situation.

No, if the Ishtar is nerfed to where people are using other ships it is because they are chasing the full flight of sentries on a cruiser. Right now the Ishtar does it best, but if only the Ishtar loses them, then the problem hasn't been addressed, which is a full flight of bonuses sentries on a cruiser hull. That's why there's been proposal to not allow a full flight of sentries. Simple as that. You still get your range and tracking, but no longer have the full damage that makes it OP. And I would much prefer having sentries remain as they are rather than needing a class of drones used by other balanced ships.

And buff all the other HACs? Are you familiar with the term power creep?

You don't even know what strawman means, do you?

The assertion that sentry drones are battleship tier weapons is not disputable. It's not up for debate, it's not a matter of opinion, and it's not my interpretation.

They are battleship weapons.

And they do not belong on a cruiser size ship. That's where the imbalance lies.

Why do you say that?And power creep isn't just dps either. It wouls be much easier to say each HAC already has a good niche (sans a few tweaks) if it weren't for the Ishtar doing them better. Remember how the Eagle was supposed to be the choice ship for long range dps (as is the focus of railguns) and how the ishtar did it better? Also notice how each race has two HACs each with a different specialization? In fact, pretty much any ship with weapons as their specialty is overshadowed by the ishtar. Thankfully the vagabond is all speed and the sacrilege is more tank-leaning. Otherwise they would be screwed too.

I directly quoted you, and then called you out on your doubletalk.

You are directly opposing change, and you tried to claim that people who want the Ishtar nerfed are the ones who aren't able to deal with change.

You're an enormous hypocrite.

So, no issues with the lost drone or the application bonuses? Also ishtar is faster than stratios. And as far as I've fitted the shield tanks are relatively the same.

I'll give on the speed, forgot to factor in mass. However I still dont see any difference in tank. In fact fitting for best shield (w/prop mod) i have ishtar as the best tank, not to mention smaller sig, and a stable capacitor.

And i'm still curious as to how much you dislike losing that extra sentry.

Just because you chose to believe in fairies that does not make them exist. Sentry drones have 400 m resolution, they ARE battleships scale weapons. And worse they do not cost fittings. They are already overpowered at the dominix... in the ishtar they are completely broken.

This "Ishtar has bonuses to battleship weapons" line that keeps coming up is interesting. We talked about it some earlier here. There's parts of it that we can agree about but it's also something that makes drones interesting across all drone using/bonused ships. You could use the same argument to say that Dominix's shouldn't get bonuses to light drones or that Vexors shouldn't be able to use lights or heavies or sentries.

We feel that in general it's an interesting and positive part of drone design that they aren't fixed to ship sizes nearly as strictly as other weapon types. We just need to find ways to have balanced ships as well.

A Crow is easier to train for and build than an Ishtar. Are you implying that an Ishtar should be a "more powerful" fast tackler than a Crow?

I certainly hope not.

My point is that different ships have different roles. ABCs fill one set of roles. HACs fill another. You can't just say that one ship is "more powerful" than another without adding the context of a specific role. Looking at HACs across the board, it's pretty easy to see that HACs and ABCs we never meant to fill the same roles. The fact that the Ishtar can fill the roles of either, often while outperforming all other ABCs and HACs, is the problem.

Other HACS getting buffs? Sure.

1 of each rage having a HAC on the power level of Ishtar? Yes please with a cherry on the top! We can stop using anything bigger than a cruiser because we'll have low sig, loads of speed and stupid DPS in all the races. Battleships will be null and void in PvP for good, we can turn them into something else then. Maybe give PvE-only bonuses to half of them and the other half should be EWAR boats.

Let's say we take a look at Muninn and what it would need to match the Ishtar:

*+3 med slot. -1 low slot, -1 high slot
*Roughly 60 m/s base speed
*Lots more of cap for perma MWD + 2x TC
*Selectable Engagement range, tracking and DPS of
--40+18; 0.0666; 702 dps
--70+12; 0.0355; 661 dps
--72+50; 0.051; 620 dps
--105+40; 0.0222; 579 dps
*No more ammo usage, it's a selectable switch on the gun

Guess what the Huginn bonus would have to be per level to reach these numbers? +10% damage and +10% RoF on top of the HAC bonuses of 10% optimal and 7,5% tracking when using 2x TC instead of 1x of the Ishtar with the figures above.

Ishtar is the odd one out and it has to be brought in line with others.

Personally I think the Assault Cruiser bonus should be:
3km bonus to Drone operation range
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range

The tracking bonus and control range is what is really making them powerful. Nerf the tracking speed and it make it harder for the drones to hit targets. Might also want to think about taking away the bonus to drone hitpoints.

Hisec exploration sites seem to be about equally populated by the Ishtar, Gila, and Cerberus. Without sentries the Ishtar would be pretty terrible here I would think. What if the HAC sentry bonus only applied to Gardes? Kinda like how the Gila and Cerb get racial bonuses to kinetic/therm and kinetic, Ishtar could just get sentry bonus to the short range Gallente sentry.

Also, you know, CCP should probably let T3s back into these sites. They're not really any better than HACs and Gilas now.